Lizzie, 29, Oxford
Occupation Teaching assistant and trainee teacher
Voting record Always votes Green, but would tactically vote Labour if she lived anywhere but Oxford
Amuse bouche Is an avid salsa dancer; performs world music in many languages
Richard, 55, Tunbridge Wells
Occupation Teacher
Voting record Pretty centrist; has voted for all three main parties. Hasn’t always been pleased with how that’s gone
Amuse bouche Richard began his professional life selling mushy peas and instant noodles
For starters
Lizzie Richard seemed kind, and friendly, but he also reminded me a lot of other meditators I’d met – probably the shaved head – so there was a moment of, “God, he’s one of them.” My fear was that I was going to be meeting with an evangelist.
Richard I arrived early, because I always do, and Lizzie arrived cool and at ease.
Lizzie I ate sea bass with mussels and samphire, and then a Catalan creme. The highlight was the homemade pink lemonade with raspberry puree.
Richard I had aubergine parmigiana.
The big beef
Lizzie I was encouraged to get into meditation at university, which provided mindfulness programmes. Through those, I went on a retreat, which prompted some significant problems. I’ve had harrowing experiences, with very negative, long-lasting impacts. I’d say they were some of the worst experiences that can be had with meditation. I was involved with it for about four years; it was another two before I felt normal again. A certain percentage of people are wired in a certain way, and will not respond well – how do we safeguard young people from that possibility? Data suggests we should have increased concerns about mindfulness interventions, whether they’re with adults or children. Obviously the risks are greater with intensive retreats, but courses are still a cause for concern.
Richard My take on the introduction of mindfulness is that it’s a basic life skill, which you can gain through short practices accessible to everyone. The deep dive of a 10-day retreat, I’d put on a separate spectrum – you can’t compare them. I’ve always been a fan of retreats, but also aware of the problem people have with them, and I wouldn’t pretend I didn’t have my own issues.
Lizzie I’m not saying meditation is always bad: one study showed similar success rates to other mental health interventions. But there’s a small percentage of people having very adverse side-effects. It wouldn’t make sense for me to say, “Stop all meditation”, any more than it would make sense to stop SSRI antidepressants. My issue is the lack of quality control, and the lack of discussion about it. We don’t treat it as something that could go wrong, so people aren’t protected.
Richard When you’re pushing people into 10 days of deep silence, one size cannot fit all. I do have concerns, but my concerns don’t go as far as Lizzie’s. I think she casts it as kind of a cult. I think there are aspects that are a bit culty. In the same way as anyone who does anything – guys who ride bikes, people who do Ironman – I don’t think retreats mean harm, I just think they’re overlooking what, as a teacher, I would consider basic safeguarding.
Sharing plate
Lizzie Richard got into teaching in his 30s; I’m about to turn 30. I talked about how I hadn’t been able to build a career, and he reassured me that a lot of people take time to find out what they want to do.
Richard We shared a lot, in terms of where we’d come from. She studied French and Spanish at Oxford; I did French and Spanish at Cambridge.
For afters
Lizzie We talked a lot about our lives – when meditation came into our lives, how that played out differently. Because of my bad experiences, I kind of deny that anyone could have a positive experience. And he helped me to understand how it had helped him.
Richard I landed at the practice when I already had a job and a child. Lizzie didn’t have those structures – she had a lot more space to fall into. We wondered whether that might be why we had such different hangovers from it.
Takeaways
Lizzie It was a wonderful evening – one that restored my faith in life.
Richard It was a privilege to be part of this conversation. I was honestly really grateful.
Additional reporting: Kitty Drake
Lizzie and Richard ate at Gees, Oxford.
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